Employed To Serve‘s latest album is Fallen Star. I spoke with vocalist Justine Jones and vocalist/guitarist Sammy Urwin about the creation of the new record, tour plans, their record label Church Road, a new PR venture and other topics.
Chad Bowar: This was the longest span that you have had between albums. Was there any particular reason?
Sammy Urwin: It was, I would say, mainly the pandemic, but I think we felt, since this is our fifth album, we had a bit of time to play with.
Justine Jones: I think naturally when a band gets as many albums deep as we are, because this is our fifth album, you tend to not have such a sense of urgency, because we have such a full set list as it is and find it hard to pick. So we just really wanted to take our time and enjoy the process. Not that we’ve never enjoyed the process of the other ones, but it’s always felt rushed and this has been way more enjoyable.
Sammy: Because if we really pushed it, we could have got it out last year because we wrapped up recording in January 2024. So we sat on it for a while, but we thought, you know what, let’s just push it back to 2025. And like Justine’s saying, just make sure we’ve got all our ducks in a row before we put it out.
Justine: Our last two records were affected by Covid, so we just wanted a bit more breathing room for them. Because as soon as you do a new record, all the focus is on that record. So we just wanted Conquering to have its heyday, because Eternal Forward Motion was released in May 2019. We had like six months of touring that before we got shut down, and then 2021 for Conquering, that was affected by Covid. Everything was rescheduled again. So we just wanted some breathing room from changes due to Covid.
When it comes to your songwriting, do you write more songs than appear on the album?
Sammy: We always have a couple of songs extra. We’ve never gone as crazy to have something like 20 tracks, and then we cull them. But there’s usually, I’d say, a good two or three songs that are up in the air. Is it going to be these ones or these ones?
Justine: We had an extra recorded that we haven’t used, and then there was a couple of demos that never made it to the recording. So we had three spares, one that got recorded along with the other songs, and that we chopped because it didn’t fit within the context of the record.
Sammy: It’s usually a flow problem, I find. It’s the songs we usually will quite like, but one or two will usually present itself as the odd one out. It will be like, it’s a cool song, but it doesn’t fit in with the vibe of the rest of the record.
When it comes to track order, is that something you agonize over, or does it usually come pretty smoothly?
Sammy: A little of column A, a little of column B, I’d say. Some present themselves as obvious choices. I think we were all on the same page when it came for picking the album closer “From This Day Forward.” We just felt this seems like the song to finish the record. There wasn’t much butting of heads this time around. I think we were more just second-guessing ourselves, going like, is this the correct order? We like to think it through, though. We’re definitely album people. We know the world’s leaning more into releasing singles and the focus being on that, but we figure if you’re going to put a record out, you best make sure you’re 100 percent happy with every track, you feel there’s no filler, and that it works cohesively as a whole.
Justine: Once it’s out, it’s out. You can’t do take backsies.
Sammy: And you put so much effort into writing the songs anyway, you want every facet of the record to be well presented, so that includes the track flow and all that stuff.
A bunch of the song titles certainly would have made good album titles. How did you settle on the final one?
Sammy: That’s a good question, because it became glaringly apparent that it had to be Fallen Star, because we had the sun featured on our second record, The Warmth of a Dying Sun, and we’d been discussing for a while. It was our drummer Casey, he first said, you know what, we should introduce the sun back into ETS world a little bit more. It didn’t necessarily mean let’s use it on an album cover, but he was like, it’s a well-recognized bit of our history, and people like it on t-shirts and stuff.
So we were thinking, well, maybe we can bring it back as our shield. And then the song “Fallen Star” was written, and then it was, what would be a really cool idea is to nod back to the second album, touch upon some of the themes that were present on that record, but bringing things up to speed with where we’re at as people now. So it was acknowledging where we’ve come from and where we’re at, and where we’re going, and just made perfect sense because of that previous conversation we had about bringing the sun back. It just made sense because the sun’s a star, so it worked perfectly.
When it came to your guests, were they all remote, or did you have any actually in the studio with you when you were recording?
Justine: We had Serena (Cherry, Svalbard) in the studio with us. She’s local. But we had Will Ramos (Lorna Shore) and Jesse Leach (Killswitch Engage) record over in their places in America. But with the music videos, we were lucky enough to be able to get them actually in the music video, rather than the old green screen onto a TV.
Sammy: It was nice to actually see them in person and yell quietly in their faces as we mimed to the song.
It’s great to have these very well-known guests, but is it a downside when it comes to the live shows, and they’re not there to perform them with you?
Sammy: I think actually, funnily enough, the hardest one is Serena’s guest spot. Not for a second am I insinuating we can mimic Will Ramos’s voice or Jesse Leach’s voice, but their parts are something that myself and Justine can cover. We can cover them whilst they’re not there, whereas Serena’s part, that’s the one where she has to be there.
Justine: I actually demoed the track in that register, and it was just about there, it was high up, it was completely out of my comfort zone. That high register is Serena’s complete comfort zone. So, luckily, she’s the easiest person for us to wrangle in for a show. She literally has a 15-minute drive down the road, so maybe we can just kidnap her. (laughs)
Maybe you could line up tours with one of the other bands.
Justine: Festival season happens, and if those bands are on the same day as us, it’s nice that we have that in our back pocket, where we can get them to come and do their songs with us.
Sammy: It makes it more special, doesn’t it, if it’s a one-off occasion. But I think we definitely had in mind that it makes sense to have those guys on a single, but they had to do something that we could cover ourselves, because you don’t want to not play your single live.
Justine: “Last Laughs” is an album track. I would have been happy for a single, but it’s hard to replicate live, because I wouldn’t feel comfortable singing it live.
All your albums are very dynamic. Is that something that just comes naturally, or do you have to specifically plan it?
Justine: It’s quite evenly both. We do, once the song’s demoed, rip it apart and be like, is this the best it can be? Or, can we add more to it to make it flow better and have more dynamicism? Yeah, that’s the word.
Sammy: It’s cool you picked up on that as well, because one of the things we keep touching upon when we look at our last album Conquering in hindsight, is that out of all of our records is probably, as much as we love it, our least dynamic in terms of quiet and loud parts, whereas it definitely was in our head with Fallen Star. We want to keep all the aggression and extreme parts that we had on Conquering, but we want to make sure we’re getting an equal balance of light and shade, because I feel like on all the other ETS records we’ve always had, like you say, the dynamics, and so there’s been peaks and valleys and stuff like that, and we wanted to make sure Fallen Star had more of that going on than Conquering did, for sure.
What role does producer Lewis Johns play when it comes to shaping the final product of the songs?
Justine: We tout him as our sixth member. He’s a producer in the most truest sense, he’s not just an engineer. He’ll make suggestions, and he’s been with us since the very beginning, since our first record, so he very much knows us as people, musically, so he’s really good to have as an outside person, but on the inside, because he wasn’t there for the whole conception of the album, but he’s there when it counts, when we’re recording it. It’s really handy having his fresh ears over all the songs, and he can make some good to great suggestions as well.
Sammy: He’s super polite, but he also, when it comes to making sure the record is the best it can be, because at the end of the day, it’s his name that gets put on the album as well, so he wants it to be a true representation of a product he’s truly happy with. So, he’ll do and say and make what needs to happen happen, but he’s also a very, very nice guy and has the best bedside manner for getting the best takes out of you.
You filmed a few videos for this album. Is that something you enjoy doing, or is it something you have to do, because the promotion process these days requires it?
Justine: I really like it when I’ve got time either side to decompress, because it’s a long old day. I enjoy it way more than I used to, because you do feel silly, because you’re obviously miming. So, you just feel a bit insane, but I’ve just gotten over myself now, and I just go, well, it’s got to be done.
Sammy: I enjoy the absurdity of it, because every time we do a video, it always requires you going to some random location with the most peculiar assortment of props. We flew out to the States for these recent videos we did, and I’m flying out there with a suit, leather trousers, fake chains, all this other stuff. We did a music video once where we built a set just in this big open room, but we just took our beds from home.
Justine: We needed a bedroom set, so we literally just dismantled his mum’s spare room. We just got a big truck, just stuck it all in there, Ikea furniture, and just reassembled it in this studio.
Sammy: It involved taking the bed down, setting it up, taking it down again, and then setting it up again, all in the space of a day. I find it quite fun, though. It’s the unusual things of being in a band that aren’t the usual day-to-day stuff you expect of being in a band. But for the most part, we were cool doing it. Some shoots are easier than others. I think the ones which are heavily performance-based and require you to run the song through 20-plus times, they can take their toll.
Justine: It’s kind of funny, because, by that point, you’re worse than you’re ever going to look physically, and you’re like, great, this is going to be on the internet forever.
The album is being released on vinyl. Are you guys collectors?
Sammy: Love vinyl. It’s my kryptonite, for sure.
When you’re on tour, do you make a point to try to stop at record stores when you can?
Sammy: 100 percent. That’s my go-to. Whatever city you were in, look for record shops and then go. It’s a nice way of getting about and seeing the city as well. I hate sitting in the green room and just doom scrolling on your phone. And for me nowadays, I buy slightly fewer brand new records. I’ll get my favorite records of the year or maybe certain releases, but I just like going and buying second-hand releases. So obviously, I’m not dropping 80 quid on records day in, day out. So it’s nice to go somewhere and pick stuff up for a tenner or 15 quid. And the memento of the tour. For me, my memory for some stuff is really bad, but I can remember exactly what record shop I bought a record from, from what city and what tour it was on. And for me, that nerdy thing of being like, yeah, cool, I bought this album when we were playing a show in this random city somewhere. I quite like it. It’s a nice memento.
Speaking of touring, when it comes to deciding whether you’re going to headline or open, is that an actual plan or does it depend completely on the offers?
Justine: We always try to have plans every year of headlining, because you can’t really control if you get asked to support a band. We try to keep a pretty consistent touring schedule, so we’ll have ideas of where we want to headline. And then, we’re always on the lookout for supports.
You’ve got a few festivals coming up this summer. Are there any you’re looking most forward to playing?
Justine: I’m really looking forward to the metal cruise we’re playing. It goes around the Baltic Sea, and we play four sets or something like that over six days, and we’re on this giant cruise ship. I’m so excited. It’s got a swimming pool and stuff on the deck.
Have you guys ever played one of those cruises before?
Justine: I’ve never even been on a cruise. The only thing I’ve done is ferries and stuff to France or Scandinavia for tours, but I’ve never been on a proper cruise ship. So I’m excited.
Touring sometimes can get to be stressful and exhausting, but after the pandemic, does it give you a different perspective of being actually able to do what you want to make a living doing that?
Sammy: Yeah, absolutely. It’s given us perspective from both sides of the coin. Enjoy the time whilst we’re on the road and don’t take it for granted, and then also using that time when you’re at home to be grateful for having time to recharge, because I think a lot of people found that everyone was living life at breakneck speed without any time to recover.
Justine: I still struggle with the initial getting on tour, because there’s so many moving parts and making sure you’ve got everything. I get quite anxious actually getting on the tour, but as soon as we’re on the way to the first day, I was like, well, I can’t get anything now. If I’ve left it behind, it’s fine. The act of actually getting onto the tour is always the struggle, just booking the hotels and that. But yeah, you enjoy it whilst I’m on it.
Sammy: Not to break the illusion, we’re far from rock and roll. So usually at home, we’ll go to bed anywhere between 9 and 10 p.m., and we’re more get up early in the morning, whereas on tour, obviously that is completely reversed. It takes us a little while to adjust to that.
Justine: Well, that’s the thing, because obviously we’ve got day jobs. We work the label and the press company during the day, so we get up at 6 a.m., so it’s just so hard to stay up past 10, 11.
Speaking of that, Church Road has been going on for a few years now. What’s the biggest lesson you’ve learned in running a business?
Justine: Money doesn’t grow on trees. It’s been really interesting, all jokes aside, trying to work out the money side of a label, because it’s weird. It’s not like any other business model, because everything’s pre-order based. You’re having money for things that aren’t out yet, so you’re constantly spending money for the next release. It’s just interesting to navigate. And also, all of the restrictions. We’ve now got the tariffs for the US, and we had Brexit before that, vinyl expenses, eco taxes, and things like that. So it’s a constant guessing game.
Sammy: For me, it’s the same lesson that applies to what we’ve learned from doing the band, or doing any of the things that we love doing, where you’ve got to take the rough with the smooth. There’s going to be the good days, and there’s going to be the tough days. At the end of it all, I can say it’s all been very exciting. Even the seat of our pants moments where it’s been a little bit scary, it’s all been good learning. I mean, we’re still here, right?
Do you see a day when you will release your own material on Church Road, or do you always want to keep that separate?
Justine: Never say never. I’d prefer to keep it separate, because I think it’s important to have that outsider’s perspective. I get overly anxious and attached to things as my band, whereas I’m very good at being very pragmatic about other people’s bands, and being a steady influence, whereas I’m at panic stations with my own band. I think it’d be quite good to potentially keep it separate.
Sammy: I think it’s one of those ones where, as long as certain aspects of it were outsourced. Years ago, Justine worked at a label where we were signed to as well, and there was always that worry of, I can’t be seen to be giving too much attention to my band, and not the other bands.
Justine: It’s the politics of it. I can easily do product management and stuff like that, but in terms of the marketing and pushing, I’d have to have a separation from it, because like Sammy said, it’s not really fair on other bands if the Church Road socials are like, Employed To Serve again.
What led to you recently starting your own PR company in addition to the label?
Justine: We only have capacity for one release a month. We wanted to work with more bands, and I like the fact that it didn’t cost us anything to run it. With releasing an album, there’s a huge upfront cost of vinyl. So it was another way of expanding the Justine and Sammy empire, without it being scary.
Sammy: We do a little bit of band management and booking and stuff like that. And obviously, we do 99 percent of the press for the label as well. I think we wanted to expand our scope, really.
Justine: And being real about it, people don’t have a lot of money right now. There has been dips in vinyl and CD sales. So it just means it’s less stressful for us being self-employed, where we can diversify and not have Church Road be our only source of paying our bills. It’s a bit of both. And also, it’s just fun having a new challenge.
Sammy: Justine’s got many more years in the industry than I do as a working professional. But I like the idea of honing in on the press aspect to be like, okay, I want to dedicate more time doing this and learning more about it and exploring that avenue.
Have you found that the bands you work with are pretty press savvy these days?
Justine: It varies. There’s some bands that are very green. But, they’re all very easy to teach. People are willing to learn. It’s things that they’ve never done before. But for the most part, they get it.
Sammy: I think everyone’s usually pretty keen. I guess the hardest thing these days is there’s so much pressure now to have, if not a huge presence, at least some kind of social media presence. And I think that’s always the hardest thing for bands to work out. Not everyone has the same approach to it, either.
Do you have any non-musical interests and hobbies?
Justine: We started going to the gym consistently for the past year and a bit. So that’s been quite fun.
Sammy: It’s a nice way to start the day, isn’t it? I find, because we work from home, and initially I was like, I might just do some exercise at home, but getting out of the house first thing in the morning before your brain takes you to your inbox or you just start doom scrolling is a good way to start the day.
Justine: I also read a lot. I crowbar time in for reading. I like to read all sorts, really. I like history books every now and then as well. But they’re weird books, so they’re sort of almost a fictional non-fiction, if that makes sense.
Do you ever find any of that inspiring your lyrics?
Justine: Yeah, I’d say so. For the early ETS records, I definitely got influenced by the Steinbeck novels The Grapes of Wrath and East of Eden, those were really good.
Sammy: We’re always looking for new avenues to explore lyrics, and we’ve been talking about lyrical topics already, and definitely some of Justine’s current reading list has come into the conversation.
Justine: You can definitely take inspiration from fictional characters without it being a concept record.
(interview published April 24, 2025)
Watch Employed To Serve – “Atonement” Video
